CR 067: Indie Band Whitehall on Songwriting, Side Hustles, and the Upside of Boredom
Whitehall frontman Paddy McKiernan and bass player Brennan Clark discuss the band’s new album, “National Finals Rodeo,” and their creative process.
Over the past decade, Brooklyn-based indie band Whitehall has amassed millions of streams across platforms, earned praise from Alternative Press and American Songwriter (among other outlets), and shared the stage with Goo Goo Dolls, Arlie, and Carver Commodore. Not bad for what frontman Paddy McKiernan says “started as a silly little college band.”
The foursome—McKiernan, guitarist Avery Greeson, bass player Brennan Clark, and drummer Davis Rowe—spent their first few years building a following in their hometown of Charleston, South Carolina before relocating to New York. Their latest album, National Finals Rodeo, is a catchy collection of melodic, guitar-heavy alt-rock songs that gives nod to ’90s-era Pavement and Modest Mouse.
And yet, despite their success, the band members point out they, like most creatives, can’t rely solely on their music to make ends meet. “It’s a funny industry because there’s so much value in it that doesn’t come from money, so there’s people that are willing to do it for free,” McKiernan says. “There’s not a lot of people throwing money into trying to get Spotify to pay people more appropriately or make sure that venues actually pay people appropriately. The value comes from other things.”
Over a recent Zoom call, McKiernan and Clark discussed the new album, their songwriting process, and the challenges of balancing a full-time career in music with side hustles.
SANDRA EBEJER: I’ve been listening to your music a lot lately. It’s so good. When you were starting out, were there any bands or musicians that you were heavily influenced by?
BRENNAN CLARK: It’s funny—when we first started, our tastes were all so disparate. We met in college and had completely different musical backgrounds. But we’ve been a band now for 10 years, so everything we like has become a lot more homogenous as we spend more time together. When we first started, Avery [Greeson], our guitar player, was listening to metal and Metallica and stuff like that. Paddy was big into John Mayer. I was listening to pop stuff. So it’s from all over the place. But now it’s a lot of indie stuff, like Pavement and bands like Car Seat Headrest and stuff like that.
Have each of you always played music?
PADDY MCKIERNAN: I think everybody started around age 12, or maybe even a little before. That seems to be the sweet spot for learning music. We all picked it up individually, and brought a bunch of different tricks in. Our drummer was big into anthem rock and Foo Fighters and stuff like that, so you can hear that in his playing. But yeah, we all have our little tricks from childhood that we have hung onto.
BRENNAN: The flute was actually my first instrument in the middle school band. I could either take art or band in middle school, and I didn’t like my art teacher, so I was like, “I’m gonna do band.” I picked up the flute randomly and then started playing guitar with my friends, because it was a lot more cool to play guitar.
National Finals Rodeo is your fourth full-length album. Is there anything you’ve learned since the release of your first album—about any aspect of making music or the business—that has surprised you?
PADDY: Four albums in, I’m not as surprised at how slow the process is anymore. We recorded this about a year ago. We were always eager to put it out, but it took a year for this one to come out. I’m not that surprised this time that it took that long. Other than that, it’s been a slow learning curve of just getting to know each other and how to record.
BRENNAN: We know each other so well now, we know what needs to be put delicately and when we can say, “This sucks. No!” Getting to know each other has definitely informed that process a lot.
To me, National Finals Rodeo and 2023’s Maizy, sound very different from your first two releases. When you’re working on an album, do you have a specific sound or vibe you’re going for? Or do you find that it happens organically as you’re recording?
PADDY: It’s pretty organic. The first album, we didn’t know what we were doing. We had a sax player in the band. It’s got these pop influences that we wanted to get away from in the second album. The second album, we were like, “Let’s make it garage. Let’s let it rip.” And then I think the last two we’ve solidified where we’re going a little bit more and homed in on a sound that’s our own. So it’s not as reactionary. It’s a much more informed creation than it used to be.
I read an interview the band did where you talked about not being able to sustain a living solely from your music. I think that’s something that doesn’t get talked about often enough. How do you balance your life so that you have the energy and time to put into your music while also working a day job?
BRENNAN: We all have day jobs, and they’re kind of shitty day jobs, too, because it’s hard to find a job that is flexible enough that you’re like, “I’m gonna be gone for a month. Is that cool?” And it’s hard to find a super stable, well-paying situation, too. It’s this weird balance. Not a ton of people are making money in music. We definitely did not get into it to make a ton of money.
PADDY: I got in for the money. I’m so disappointed.
BRENNAN: [Laughs] I read something cheesy on Instagram or something. It’s like, you’re still an artist when you’re at your day job, which I sometimes need to remind myself of, because it can be soul sucking to be doing whatever and then go home and feel like you’re actually doing the work from six o’clock to midnight when you’re working on music. It’s just this weird, weird space.
That’s a good segue to my next question. It’s a challenging time to be a creative. You’re fighting against algorithms and AI and poor-paying streaming platforms to get people’s attention on your work. What motivates the four of you to keep going? What is your why?
BRENNAN: I mean, we just love making music. It does suck—I hate the fact that I have to also be a content creator. That feels so weird and slimy and gross, but I do like making music. So I’m just gonna do that whether the algorithm is working or not.
PADDY: Yeah. That’s really it. It’s like we’re still 18-year-olds playing in a dumb rock band together.
You mentioned 12 being the sweet spot for starting in music. I feel like 12-year-olds nowadays have so many things vying for their attention. I’m wondering if you have any advice for young people who might be interested in music but are constantly being pulled in four million different directions by the distracting stuff that we have in our faces all the time.
PADDY: For me, it’s still an ongoing battle. I love downloading a new game on my phone and playing it. But I am definitely always trying to get bored. I feel like that’s where a lot of things come from. It’s like, “I’m bored. I’m gonna work on this riff.” Or “I’ve never really learned that song and I always liked it, so I might as well.” Just being bored is key. It’s hard to allow yourself the space in a world where we’re constantly distracted, but I think that’s the most useful tool.
BRENNAN: My dumb advice would just be go do it. Go hang out with your friends and make songs. I also wonder how much of [technology] is going to be a useful tool for making music. Obviously, too much screen time is horrible. I’m not saying just be on your iPad. But people are scared of AI. I wonder how much of that is going to be a really exciting tool for musical creation, if we’re able to lean into the good a little bit and hopefully avoid as much of the bad as possible.
What’s the songwriting process for the four of you? Is it collaborative? Is there one of you that tends to be the lyricist?
PADDY: It changes every song, honestly, which is super fun and fresh for us. We all write lyrics; we all write little riffs and chord structures. I probably tend to write the most, but it varies a lot. And then even if it’s something I brought in, it usually changes in the practice space. It changes a lot with everybody added to it. It’s fun to figure out where a song actually lands, or how it feels.
Are there ever moments where one person has a specific idea of how a song should sound and others disagree?
BRENNAN: Every song! [Laughs] We’ve been friends for a long time, though, so I feel like it’s a cool creative space to be able to have those conversations. And it’s not personal. I’ve had plenty of ideas that they’re like, “Absolutely not!” Our process is pretty democratic, too. So if anybody is just like, “No, it’s not working for me,” it’s not in the song. It’s a fun challenge creatively to find something that works for everybody or at least is serviceable. There’s a little bit of give and take, but it’s interesting.
PADDY: We often joke that the band is a four-way marriage between four dudes. Didn’t realize I was signing up for that.
There are two songs on the new album that I’ve been listening to on repeat, and I’d like to ask about them. The first is “Breakdowns.” How did that song come about?
PADDY: That’s one of my songs. The original acoustic version of that was so different from [the album version]. I love how it ended up. A lot of this record is about moving to New York and this song in particular is about how everything hits really hard here at once. The highs here are very high; the lows are so low. It was in one of those low moments where it’s just like, “Alright, here we go again. Everything’s hard.” It was an outlet, a way of writing that feeling out and then moving on, getting it out of my brain. It was one of those meditative songs where it’s like, I’m just gonna say what I mean and that’s the song.
The other is “Denim Blue,” which I love. What can you share about that song?
PADDY: That’s a funny one, because that’s a very multi-piece song. I brought in a song that we didn’t like, so we changed the chords to that song, and then the lyrics didn’t work anymore.
BRENNAN: So we rewrote the lyrics. It just completely shifted.
PADDY: And the lyrics I had written to a different song that didn’t work for the band. I was like, “I have these in my notes app. I’ll sing them over as a placeholder.” And they fit really nicely. It was really just a hodgepodge of three songs that didn’t work.
BRENNAN: One of my favorite things about that song is the little outro ending. Our drummer writes a little bit, but not lyrics that often. But on this record, he started dabbling and writing lyrics and melodies. And he was like, “Guys, I have this idea for the end of the song. Do you want to hear it?” We’re like, “Yeah, man. Sure.” Then he gets up and sings that. We’re like, “Well, that’s in the song! Done.” It was my favorite part.
PADDY: We were in the studio, so it was last minute, but it was just a really nice, like, “Oh, thanks for rounding out that song.”
BRENNAN: That was a fun process, for sure.
What triggers you to want to write a song? Is it mostly your personal life?
PADDY: I tend to write superficially and then I find out later that it was a metaphor for my own self. It’s really nice to just write about what’s in front of you, how you feel right then, and then connect it to some other stuff. Like, oh, that’s actually the same relationship I have with this person, and I can bring their life into this and my experience and sort of confuse myself about where the lines are.
Do you ever have creative blocks or feel creatively stuck, either as a group or individually? And if so, how do you break through that?
PADDY: Oh, yeah. Changing the process, stepping away from it for a little while. For me personally, just writing something and then walking away, coming back and seeing if it’s good. Doing that process a million times, you’ll land somewhere.
BRENNAN: Sometimes we have luck if we’re just like, “You know what? It’s not working. Let’s step away.” And then we’ve also had good luck when we just hack away at something. “Denim Blue” is a good example of that, where it wasn’t working. We just kept hacking at it until it did.
PADDY: Yeah. Sometimes the songs come about because you spend more time on them and push them further. And sometimes you walk away from a song and then the lyrics come up in another tune.
Even though you’ve been together for a decade, Whitehall is still a relatively new band. You’ve had a lot of great press and you’re building a following, but as you shared, you’re still working day jobs. When you think about the future, what does success mean for you? Where would you like to see your career take you?
BRENNAN: I’d just love to pay rent. [Laughs]
PADDY: I think that’s the big one. Being a full-time musician, making original work would be it.
BRENNAN: There are all these cool, crazy, bucket list venues—obviously it’d be cool to sell out the Garden or whatever. But, yeah, just not having to go to work would be sick. [Laughs]
What advice do you have for aspiring musicians?
PADDY: Be bored. Go to shows. Talk to people. Get involved. Some of the relationships we have from touring and just being friends with bands are some of the most stable, cool, inspiring relationships we have.
BRENNAN: Yeah, I agree. It’s collaborative. Nobody’s making money. You kind of need communities. Go to shows. If you like a band’s music, tell them you like it. Engage a little bit. Sounds obvious, but it’s nice when you have friends.
To learn more about Whitehall, find them on Instagram.
This interview has been edited for clarity and length.
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